A flawed universe

I'm a religious person go to church and all and I'm Catholic, but I never use the 'covering answer' as it is called. I see the world as a balancing act. For example, somewhere someone will have a good day and the next day they may not have such a good one. I think things neutralise themselves and each other to make most things balanced and even.

Like women suffering pain of having a baby. If we couldn't suffer such a pain would we really appreciate the value of the childs life after birth? Would we want to love and care for it? Even the deperession, most of the time it does pass after pregnancy and stuff and the mother begins to feel affection for the child and sees things as well worth it.

Sorry for using pregnancy as an example.

hey,

I'm not particularly religious but was brought up in the Christian Church and still attend from time to time.
Just in relation to the first post about menstrual cycles and the pain etc associated with it, if you choose to believe the viewpoint from the Bible, it says that God created the World perfect and it was original sin that brought with it all the suffering and sin into the world.
It is written in Genesis that as part of Eve's punishment there would be pain in childbearing which would  then in turn include the menstrual cycle a it is a vital part of having a child.

I realise that not everyone will agree with me and may also want to know why God would allow us to be punished if he loves us so much.
Well i don't know the answer, but the way i see it, God basically created us and a whole world for us to live which was perfect and asked only one thing and when this was disobeyed and badness was then brought about he punished us.
It's not the same i know, but i'm sure most parents have punished their children at one point or another for something they did wrong but it does not stop them loving their children and wanting good things for them.

Just an opinion and viewpoint

Two points. First of all Catholics are Christian. The Catholic church is a subset of the Christian faith. Just for clarity.

Second, while I am Catholic, I do believe in evolution (blasphemy, I know!). But Darwin's research is pretty darn hard to refute.  So, while this may not satisfy any, I'd like to think that while God may have created a "perfect" world, through evolution (both natural and forced by progress) things have changed--some for the better, some not. As far as the menstrual cramps go, well, my answer doesn't solve that, so obviously my answer isn't perfect or right. But it is what I like to think.

What intelligent designer would put the urinary system so close to the reproductive system?  D;
But not just PMS, either.  We're one of the few species that still has menstrual cycles.  Most species don't.  It would be too dangerous by attracting too many predators.

I love how active this god used to be in the old stories, but nowadays, if he revealed himself clearly, it would somehow create problems.  >.>

FlirtyFlossy21 wrote:

Personally, I have no belief in God, merely in faith and science. I also don't believe in the original sin. Much of this seems a way in which the religion has been able to place women as second class and keep her in her place. Once revered as the bringers of life we are now the epitome of sin.
However, above all else I believe we are each entitled to an opinion. I don't devalue anyone who does believe in this, it's just not for me. There are, as you said, too many flaws for me to place my belief in such a notion but I do have a certain respect for those who can have such blind faith.

Funny thing.  The Church saw Pagans as a threat and women as the biggest threat of all.  In order to make it easier to control these people, they had to denigrate women to second class status, so that men would not listen to them.  It was not the religion that hates women, it was the men who feared Paganism.  D;
But, if I had to pick a faith that believed in a single god, it would probably be Islam.  The Koran/Qu'ran actually gives far more rights to women than Christianity did.  Once again, it was the men who feared women having power who corrupted it.  >.>

Cryzilla these are peoples viewpoints, nothing more.
But where would you put the urinary or reproductive system?
i wouldn't want either of those things coming out of my mouth for instance.
The predators that attack us are mainly us and not for any reasons surrounding a menstrual cycle.
Pain is an indicator that something is not right. If there was no pain and your burnt yourself, you would not know and could accidentally leave your hand on the fire or whatever causing more problems. It lets us know that our bodies need attention to be at full help.
THe suffering I would say is there to help us appreciate the beautiful things more. If you've never felt hardship and struggle then you would just take everything for granted and would have no sense of compassion, sympathy and appreciation.
If you choose to believe in a timeless God, then you would also believe in his (her) timeless love. Then in turn any punishment they dished out would have to be timeless if for no other reason than for consistency.
Personally i think it is so that the same mistakes are hopefully avoided. Obviously there would never be another Eden situation but let's say for example that your dad punished you for something that was supposedly the worst thing ever and then no reminder was ever given to your children and there childrens children blah blah it would easily be forgotten and then maybe repeated.
You could say that well it's written in the Bible surely that's enough? but who takes notice of written word and even the Bible really? It seems that unless people are personally affected by something (massive generalisation i know) then they pay no attention and carry on with their lives.
While i am not Jewish, Hindu or any other religion and so therefore do not hold any personal stock from their religious texts i would not be so disprespectful as to call them merely a Fairy tale.

Flossy I can see how living your life by a book written over 2000 years ago can seem like blind faith but speaking for myself and others i know, while we have heard it's teachings from a young age, actually accepting them as true and relevant in your own life is probably the hardest thing to do. Definately for myself anyway which is why i am not in church every week.
At the same time i do see what you saying about faith and science.
I believe in a personal relationship with God and i do also believe that some of the constraints and rituals put on by a man made religion can seem irrelevant but i'm still working my way through it.

In relation to Darwinism, although i don't believe in Evolution as it says in the Bible that God made each according to his own kind, there is obvious logic in the survival of the fittest, which would explain why some species disappear and relatives seem to evolve.
With the languages, The Bible says that all mankind had one language and the people were later scattered after the Tower of Babel so the other names would have come later.

I have no idea about the sexuality thing but please someone show me where it says i shouldn't eat shrimp or play football as i love them both and reading that would really make me smile!

Oh may days, i've been writing for ages and anyone who has actually read through the end of my drivel really should be applauded. But just wanted to put my two pennies (or maybe two pounds) worth back in.

Edited to correct the obvious mistakes and to say that i realise the Jewish holy book is the old testament in the Bible before the obvious was pointed out.

Last edited by orora (07-19-2008 00:12)

I believe in God and Jesus, but I agree with what Cryzilla was saying. If only God and Jesus would've stopped what they were doing and wrote their own memoirs we wouldn't have half these problems, arguments, etc about what they meant when they said this or that. Instead, the Bible was written by people. People tend to want what they believe and say to be truth or known by others... I believe that's what most of the Bible is, for example the Leviticus (I forget if Leviticus is a person lol but bear with me) line about men not laying with men. I think he didn't like that kind of behavior, so he thought he should write it down so other people could believe it too.

Also, the part about divorce where it says women should only divorce their husbands if they committed adultery. I'd doubt  there is a Heaven or a God if a lady is sent to Hell because she divorces her husband for beating her just because it wasn't adultery. Though, if a guy is beating you, he's probably sneakin around too.

I'm not religious at all >.> My mom "found religion" when I was about nine, turning first to Christianity, then Mormonism (is that the proper word?), and more recently has been reading Pagan books and turning more towards that. Personally, I believe that at the root of it, most religions are beautiful; it's people who mess it up. And that's not to say that I believe in some omnipotent being who watches me shower and knows when I'm naughty; I just think that religion could be good for people, if people didn't constantly use it as an excuse to attack or degrade others.

Cryzilla wrote:

numba1bimbx wrote:

Like women suffering pain of having a baby. If we couldn't suffer such a pain would we really appreciate the value of the childs life after birth? Would we want to love and care for it? Even the deperession, most of the time it does pass after pregnancy and stuff and the mother begins to feel affection for the child and sees things as well worth it.

Sorry for using pregnancy as an example.

But then a woman who has a c-section or uses epidurals would be found to love her baby less, following that logic, no?

C sections can equally be as painful as a natural birth and epidurals have their own risks. I'm not saying that the mother would love their children less if they didn't give birth naturally.

What I forgot to mention is that the mother is carrying the baby for up to 9 months and sometimes even a few weeks more, most of the time because she truly wants to have this baby. There is a bond made between mother and child before the child even comes into the world.

Carrying a baby has it's own pains and even if the mother has a c section she would still have felt the pain of going into labour and in the end or it all no matter whether the child is adopted or not, the mother usually feels care for the child and a sense of accomplishment and appreciation for the child which could in turn develop into love.

Sometimes a mother may suffere post natal depression and most of the time it passes and the end result is the love of the child.

The bible is a set of guidelines and not the be all that some non-Christians believe Christians see it as. It is open to interpretation. Chritians generally follow the new testament rather than the old and it is seen that the old testament has been overruled by the new testament. The old testament is part of the bible as  it tells of a time before Christ.

We are but a speck on the shore of entirety. And that is that.

if anyone would seriously like to look into science and the bible/religion/God i have a web site to recommend. www.reasons.org. there are people who are far more educated than myself who hold a christian world view ie physicists and biologists. they are also far more eloquent than i  am.  but i'll try to put a little of my own reasons to believe in this post. i'm an evangelical christian.  i've had many doubts about the existence of God, the truth of the biblical text etc. i have never wanted to base my world view on something as flimsy as "i believe just because i do and you should too"


i believe because:

the bible has more manuscript copies than any other ancient book

the word for day in the creation account of genesis can mean a long but finite period of time, just as we say"back in my grandparents day" we do not mean a specific day, but an era.

the universe does show order and fine tuning, there is even a term for it coined by the secular scientific world. the anthropic principle.

the very specific predictions made in the old testament re the coming messiah were fulfilled in the life of jesus.

there are more  but i wont take up your time with them.  i stumbled onto this topic. i'm sure it closed, but if anyone wants to talk more pm me.

Leigha23 wrote:

Two points. First of all Catholics are Christian. The Catholic church is a subset of the Christian faith. Just for clarity.

Second, while I am Catholic, I do believe in evolution (blasphemy, I know!). But Darwin's research is pretty darn hard to refute.  So, while this may not satisfy any, I'd like to think that while God may have created a "perfect" world, through evolution (both natural and forced by progress) things have changed--some for the better, some not. As far as the menstrual cramps go, well, my answer doesn't solve that, so obviously my answer isn't perfect or right. But it is what I like to think.

Actually it’s quite okay for Catholics to think evolution is how we all got here, because one of the Popes did this nifty thing where he said that evolution is the way God works. He also admit – some 50 or so years ago – that the world is indeed round. And people say the catholic church doesn’t make any progress. 

It’s really just some nutty yanks that think evolution is the devils work. It’s true. I met this guy (at least I think he was a guy) in another site that wanted to prove to the world that evolution is wrong. The problem was he wanted to proof it with a lot of religious seal… which work so well for him. I believe the saying goes: It was like shooting fish in a barrel…

But honestly I don’t mind the “God works through evolution† and “he created natural law so he might as well use it† theory.

expired wrote:

I think something people often forget about Christianity is that a lot of the rules written in the Old Testament was more guidelines. Not eating shellfish or pigs made sense because shellfish can very easily make you sick as can pigs. Homosexuality also had it's own risks. When Jesus came he kind of told us to forget those rules..

Also a very valid point. Jesus said the only rule with have to follow is : Love thy neighbour as you love yourself!

Non of the your woman you must cook and obey me crap. Non of the I will bash your head in if you don’t worship the same way I do crap. Jesus was the worlds first hippie and feminist you know.

But that was already said in old Testament as well as many other religions.

And really hasn’t anything to do with the topic except for the fact that I read these post and liked them.

I don’t think the universe is flawed. It all fit together perfectly. Well except for human beings, of course. And not just because of cramps but more because of the way we treat each other and this planet. Makes you think about the statement that we were created in Gods image?

It makes me think less of God anyway. Smart enough to create humans not smart enough to see it was a bad idea.

Add to that that the whole think of worship only me and make a song and dance about how I created you and every little thing in the entire universe just seems very petty and very human to me.

Someone also said that it’s odd that God isn’t as active as he was anymore. Well I guess this were human interpretation and exaggeration comes into play. I’m quite certain that if Ghandi or Martin Luther King jr. had lived in different times they would have been called prophets and you just know someone would have seen them heal someone or change water into wine  …because if you really think about it what they didn’t wasn’t really any less impressive. They healed soles and changed minds.

It’s almost incomprehensible how much they changed through just their reason and prayers. They touched and still touch so many people that try to life up to the standards that these men have set up that it made their lives and the lives of those around them better.

And I think the same is true for those who truly believe in God and/or Jesus or the prophet/teachings of their respective religion.

However most Christians I have met have managed to offend me somehow. And while I was raised Catholic and I find comfort in some the catholic rituals I really don’t see eye to eye with the catholic church on A LOT of things. Most of time when I do talk to God, I question his/her existence which is in my opinion a lot healthier relationship with the maybe creator of the universe than blind faith.

So that's my two cents ...